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Talking about Spike

There once was a girl
Happy Easter everyone!



Hope you had/are having a nice Sunday with lots of chocolate eggs. *w*

Now, talking about Spike. You know that I'm disappointed by the last issue of Angel&Faith. I dislike that portrayal of Spike not because he had sex with another woman (Still, it's Harmony that we're talking about and he treated her so badly! The girl - yes, evil soulless vamp, whatever - deserves some respect!) but because they want us to buy that Spike. A Spike who rants about the soul as if it's something he doesn't want or as if he has less experience and self-knowledge than Angel.

I think that after the whole Twangel experience it's unbelievable to still represent Spike as the jerkish little brother and Angel as the wiser older one. And after all S7 it's unbelievable to still question Spike's heroism and acceptance of the soul. It feels like the comics are regressing with him and his interaction with Buffy just because they want us to jump into the big Bangel ship or because they want to play the "waiting- for Spuffy" card as much as they can. Ugh.

But I also just realized how much I really miss Spike. The *true* Spike, the one who his a fool for love and has all the emotions in his eyes. The one who tilts his head and looks at Dawn with sincere affection. The one wonderfully played by James Marsters.

You also know how much I feel for Buffy and how much I identify with her, but I realized that I have the same deep bond with Spike. Maybe even much more deeper, because Spike makes me feel everything. He always does. When I write about him I can feel his pain and I experiment catharsis through him. Spike always suffers for some reasons - not only in my fanfics but also in the canon - but his pain is never unnecessary or unnatural. Most of all Spike suffers for love and there's such a fundamental and pure truth about that. It always gets me.

I still don't feel Spike in the comics. Sadly I don't feel Buffy - and generally I strongly identify with her - and I don't feel Spike. I just felt for him at the end of S8, in the final issue and when Buffy confesses him to being pregnant and he gives her his help. Than everything is blurred and it's such a pity because Spike is the most amazing character I've ever seen. I love him unconditionally because his pain is never a "big emo" kind of pain but, as a previously said, it's something with real authenticity. Something we all can feel.

I also miss gender-crossing Spike. I mean, he doesn't dress or anything (I think he would be so prettier than everyone) but his relationship with Buffy subverts many heteronormative tropes and he's the one giving her his heart and wanting so much more that just sex. I can picture Spike being the prostitute and Buffy the client and Spike giving himself to her. Not so many het romance are complex and subversive as Spuffy and I love the pairing also because of that. Because it shows how emotional and feminine a man can be and how cold and masculine a woman can be. /ALL MY LOVE FOREVER.

I still hope it gets better with the comics, because hope is hard to kill and because I would personally slap the authors until they give me want I want. I want furious, tender, complex and passionate Spike back.

(Also I don't buy Harmony sleeping with him after their fight in S5 of Angel!)

Comments

( 30 comments — Leave a comment )
eilowyn
Apr. 1st, 2013 06:07 pm (UTC)
The comics suck. Admitting they are is the first step towards acceptance. But yeah. Word. I miss season 7 Spike, too. And I often am not sure who I love more-Buffy or Spike.
kikimay
Apr. 1st, 2013 06:48 pm (UTC)
It's just that ... it such a big chance to see how it goes! I can't help but hoping that the authors will eventually write better. I mean, they had the chance to bring the Buffyverse back, why waste it?
Spike's my beloved. I could marry him.
tant0.myopenid.com
Apr. 3rd, 2013 12:16 am (UTC)
I feel for Buffy (...) and generally I strongly identify with her

Interesting. May I ask why? Buffy's not a part of the human world, she doesn't face the problems or issues us humans do and unlike us humans she has little control over her own life, it's all destiny, prophecy, mystic forces. Identifying with a character like that seems kinda uncanny to me.

Spike's my beloved. I could marry him.

I understand liking the character, he's funny, honest, attractive but actually marrying Spike? Don't you find it troubling that you could marry a serial killer? No hard feelings, I don't judge you, I'm just curious.

I still hope it gets better with the comics

I've been waiting for the writing in this franchise to get better since season 5. It has not. It just gets worse and worse with every season. Season 9 was where I got off the train. There's no character development, on the contrary, the characters are actually regressing, there's no story just and endless gimmick chase, rehashes, asinine metaphors and political nonsense. Do the writers really think that having a gay character in a comic book in 2013 is progressive? Seriously? Those Dork Horse comic book nerds are mentally stuck in the 90s or something. Buffy sleeps with a woman, finally something new and interesting is done with the character and...it lasts exactly 4 issues, back-pedalling ensues, it leads to nothing. Buffy gets an abortion, all right, that's pretty cool...no, it's a robot. Wait, what?!

The writers, whoever writes this garbage these days, I don't care, have no balls.
kikimay
Apr. 3rd, 2013 10:43 am (UTC)
Interesting. May I ask why?

But Buffy is also "just a girl". She has this destiny thingy and everything but she's very human all the time. I don't have super-streight and I'm not strong physically, but I can relate with her need to protect her family that leads to self-sacrifice, I understand what she's going through with her first semester at university and I understand her complex relationship with her friends and why she behaves in certain ways. Really, it's all about the human part.

And talking about Spike: of course I wouldn't marry - or fall in love, for the matter - a serial killer. Once again it's about the human part of Spike, leaving aside his nature as vampire which is the fantasy element.
tant0.myopenid.com
Apr. 3rd, 2013 02:00 pm (UTC)
I understand (...) why she behaves in certain ways.

See, I don't. The reasoning behind some of her decisions does not even resemble that of a human being, much less of "just a girl". Willing to sacrifice the life of a human to protect a vampire ( "Lies My Parents Told Me" ) is not human. Willing to leave your 15 year old sister under the watch of a vampire who attempted to rape you ( "Villains" ) is not human. Willing to infect human children with demonic energy ( "Chosen" ) is not either. It's not her superpowers that betray her, it's how she thinks, what she values and how she perceives the world. That's why I find it impossible to identify with Buffy, she has some humanity left in her and when it shines it's truly beautiful but the core seems too alien, too inhuman, too monstrous to me.

Once again it's about the human part of Spike, leaving aside his nature as vampire which is the fantasy element.

But the fantasy element is an integral part of the character you love. Spike who looks at Dawn with sincere affection is the same Spike who raped and tortured girls her age. You can't have one without the other. We've seen Spike without the fantasy element, in "Fool for Love" and in "Lies My Parents Told Me" but if I'm not mistaken that is not the Spike you describe as furious, tender, complex and passionate. Those character traits are a direct result of him being a vampire. An immortal body, the strength, the lust for blood, the slaughter is what turned William into Spike.

You lied to your readers Kikimay. There's nothing unconditional about your love. You pick traits you love, discarding the less convenient parts. You don't actually love Spike, not really, you love what you want him to be.



Edited at 2013-04-03 02:02 pm (UTC)
kikimay
Apr. 3rd, 2013 04:57 pm (UTC)
I don't see how I lie to my readers. I'm sorry but it's a pretty harsh expression to use.
Fantasy tale are mythical tales but about something intrinsecally human. The core is always humanity otherwise people wouldn't enjoy these tales as much as they do.
Buffy is a tale about a young woman accepting and welcoming her power, being a reluctant hero forced to fight and discovering the mission behind the job. Saving Dawn isn't about duty, it's about love. Giving the power to the Potentials isn't about enslaving but about making them able to fight and protect themselves (the First wanted to kill them all. We saw in Buffy's dreams young girls being brutally stabbed)
Spike is a monster and a non-human character who fights for his humanity. And, of course, he makes mistakes and sometimes lets his vampiric nature prevails but, in the end, he chooses his soul and he chooses to fight the good fight. And it's not about the demon, it's about what William truly wanted all his mortal and immortal life.
3hours
Apr. 2nd, 2013 02:36 am (UTC)
Hello! I've friended you :)

(Seen you around, checked out your interests and it seems we've got a fair amount in common, etc.)

Edited at 2013-04-02 02:37 am (UTC)
kikimay
Apr. 2nd, 2013 10:40 am (UTC)
Hi! Nice to meet you!
rebcake
Apr. 2nd, 2013 06:08 am (UTC)
Up 'til his appearance in A&F, I didn't have any real objections to the depiction of Spike in the comics, especially in comparison to the hatchet job being done on poor Buffy. But this frat boy version is not on.
kikimay
Apr. 2nd, 2013 10:41 am (UTC)
Yes, Buffy is treated horribly. I berely can recognize her.
feel_the_joy
Apr. 2nd, 2013 04:53 pm (UTC)
Thanks for this. We really need more meta like this that respects Spike since the powers that be aren't going to. Reading about what happened makes me glad I already burned out my emotional investment in the comics. Otherwise I'd have been absolutely devastated by this. As it stands, I'm just miffed that the comics are STILL disrespecting Spike/Spuffy fans and giving the haters ammo for their bashing. Especially with the way they are writing Angel and promoting Bangel as the great love of the Buffyverse. I'm sick of the bias.

IMO Buffy has been characterized even worse than Spike(so far). The way comic book guys see these characters really makes me scratch my head. Really I wish people would stop buying the comics. They cause too much strife in fandom and DH doesn't deserve the money. I really feel for people that were deeply hurt by this. I've already been through that and it took me a long time to get past it. As much as you hope the comics will get better, I really think letting them go would be better for you. *hugs*
kikimay
Apr. 2nd, 2013 05:50 pm (UTC)
Oh, thank you for commenting.
I want to finish this S9 most definetly. I just want to know how they are going to handle all the things and just give the comics this chance. Then I really don't know. I'm hoping for the best because it's the chance to bring the Buffyverse back but if it ends like S8 I'm gonna be really disappointed and done with it.
feel_the_joy
Apr. 2nd, 2013 09:05 pm (UTC)
You're welcome :)
IMO they already had their chance and they blew it spectacularly. I hope you aren't disapointed, but for me there is no bringing the Buffyverse back in the comics. Even if S10 is the best thing ever it won't work for me because everything that came before it has been such crap. The characters I know and love from the show would *not* act the way they're being written. Why should I care about a continuation of the story if I can't even recognize the characters? And I really don't think DH has any intention of respecting us. Just IMO. But I hope they do get better if people want to keep reading.
kikimay
Apr. 2nd, 2013 09:42 pm (UTC)
I know. I just want to give the comics another chance. Also I'm really curious about the authors decisions - even if so far they were kinda meh - so I'm reading and hoping it gets better.
feel_the_joy
Apr. 3rd, 2013 01:00 am (UTC)
Well, I don't expect any improvement, but that's just my opinion. If you're still curious about what they want to do with the verse that's fine :)
metanewsmods
Apr. 2nd, 2013 05:46 pm (UTC)
Lovely post! Can we link it to ?
kikimay
Apr. 2nd, 2013 05:51 pm (UTC)
Yes.
tennyo_elf
Apr. 3rd, 2013 09:46 pm (UTC)
I know how you feel. However, personally, I'm not giving the comics a second chance. I'm curious where they will take Spike next, but I'm out for season 10. Even if they make Spike human (which is a big thing for me) I doubt they'll ever pull me back in. They had their chance. Season 9 was their chance. They blew it. (If anything, I might read up on season 10 if they make Spike human, but I'm refusing to get emotionally invested in something I know they'll just take a piss on.)

I've been thinking about how contradictory and out of character Spike was in AnF and there is just too many things to point out that make me really wonder why none of this was caught before being published, but hen I remembered that all the editors have an Angel bias (Allie/Hahn) so I doubt they actually would have ever caught this (really, it would only look natural to them as this is how they see Spike). It really is a train wreck to witness.

But yeah, I miss Spike too (and Buffy). You can find in some really good fan fiction!
kikimay
Apr. 3rd, 2013 10:23 pm (UTC)
I agree. I'm curious to know if they want to make Spike human (which would be interesting and great, at least in my mind) but I'm already not that emotional invested. I'm just curious and disappointed by the last issue of A&F.
tennyo_elf
Apr. 6th, 2013 04:47 am (UTC)
It's weird, I got emotionally invested during early season 9. I was very disappointed about Spike being taken out of the season, but Allie made an announcement and for like a week or so I was okay, thinking it was for the best. Then I realized it was utter bullshit and every issue I grew more and more upset that they took out Spike.

And not just because of spuffy. I saw that Spike was needed in the main title because he was supposed to be an important part of the season. Taking him out actually hurt the main title and it hurt the underlining backbone of Spike's story being related to not just Buffy, but to Dawn as well (and maybe even Xander). So yeah, my emotional investment soured very quickly.

The comics do get me emotional, though it's becoming less and less intense (though AnF issue 20 really pissed me off). And any emotion I do feel for the comics now are negative. It's either contempt, disgust, disappointment, rage, and/or sadness. The days I was eager for a new issue have long since passed.

I'm not staying around for season 10. These people do not know what they are doing. Spike becoming human would be great for his character and I would really love to see that explored in a meaningful great way. But with this team all I see it devolving into is Spike complaining all the time, being useless, annoying, getting drunk, near killed, sleeping around and then trying to become a vampire again because these people don't understand Spike and how just maybe, if Spike becomes human, he might want to stay that way and change and have a family and learn to have strength without the supernatural.

Sorry for my rant. In a ranty mood tonight.
kikimay
Apr. 6th, 2013 10:13 am (UTC)
Don't be sorry. It's always ranty time with the comics.
I'm curious and I had great hopes at the beginning of S9. My main disappointment was about robo!Buffy. She was pregnant and she had to abort and then, bam! Robo-Buffy. It felt like it was a ridiculous choice.
And I also didn't understand why they took out Spike. But I suppose it was because they planned the Dru mini and then something went wrong, so they went from Dru to Spike.
tennyo_elf
Apr. 9th, 2013 09:44 pm (UTC)
I'm okay with the robo cop out. I get why people hate it and agree that it was in bad taste but also part of me thinks I can see some kind of message in it all.

Taking out Spike and how they handled the spuffy is more of a disappointment for me. I think, as a whole, for the theme, for the Buffy of it, and for Spike's character, it would have been better if a) He didn't tell Buffy he loved her in issue 7 and b) he never left.

The Dru mini is a mystery to me but I think politics got involved. The Spike mini was last minute. Would have been better if he just worked on the B plot in Buffy's title. I heard from somewhere that the original plan was keeping Spike in Buffy season 9 and also begin Xander's story around issue 10 too. I heard that Jane/Drew had to rewrite Billy's arc because they took out Spike. But I don't know how true all those things are. But if it is true, their original plan was much better. I have no idea what they were thinking, except money and wanting Spike to be over on Angel because they wanted Spike to interact with Angel, their favorite.
kikimay
Apr. 9th, 2013 09:58 pm (UTC)
I also knew that the plans were different. Spike was supposed to stay during the whole S9 and the mini was about Dru. Then the change because Juliet Landau was having problems and they missed her for the Dru mini.
tennyo_elf
Apr. 9th, 2013 10:01 pm (UTC)
I just don't know if the Dru mini caused the Spike mini. It could have been the case. I dunno.

I wish they stuck with the original plan! :(
kikimay
Apr. 9th, 2013 10:08 pm (UTC)
I wish they just come up with something decent for the season finale.
tennyo_elf
Apr. 9th, 2013 10:10 pm (UTC)
Only reason I'm sorta sticking around. I want to see where all this leads to.

Maybe it'll be decent, but I'm not holding my breath.
kikimay
Apr. 9th, 2013 10:33 pm (UTC)
Right there with you. I just want to know what they're planning to do.
tennyo_elf
Apr. 11th, 2013 06:08 am (UTC)
Shall we place bets? How bad will it be? lol!
kikimay
Apr. 11th, 2013 10:44 am (UTC)
Oh! But I still hope they make something good!
tennyo_elf
Apr. 11th, 2013 08:47 pm (UTC)
Hope springs eternal! I personally have zero hope that anything good will come about. But, let's wait and see together! :)
( 30 comments — Leave a comment )

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There once was a girl
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